Curse

Yol · Mar 23, 2010, 10:48 AM // 10:48

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bryant Again

PvE was never meant to have endgame. You beat the campaign, you're done.

When GW was just Prophecies, the PvE endgame was PvP. Nostalgia alone is enough to tell me that it's no longer the case, unfortunately. As for rewards, I agree that nothing in this game really needs a reward (if you want to do a dungeon then just do it, regardless of whether it gives a 100g gem or a 100k gold weapon). However, as we do have rewards in-game, they should be balanced and consistent, and the contrast between Frostmaws HM and FoW NM given above illustrates it very well. Maybe this is something that will be addressed in the 5th anniversary update.

Gun Pierson · Mar 23, 2010, 11:21 AM // 11:21

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bryant Again

As I just said: PvE wasn't supposed to have an endgame. That's like advocating for the Legend of Zelda - or pretty much any single player game - to have an endgame.

PvE was Story Mode. You complete the story, you are set; you've beaten the game. Once you've read a book you can hope for a sequel, but that's about it. When you buy an apple you can't complain that it doesn't taste enough like an orange.

And what I say is that with some creativity and effort, the replayablity of this game could have been drastically improoved. Doesn't matter if it originally wasn't meant for that, the customer is always right they say. The PvP dream ended 6-12 months after release.

The game attracted a large PvE playerbase, because it was advertised as a free to play online RPG , so people bought an apple thinking it would taste like an apple, but it tastes like an orange.

Bryant Again · Mar 23, 2010, 11:48 AM // 11:48

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gun Pierson

And what I say is that with some creativity and effort, the replayablity of this game could have been drastically improoved. Doesn't matter if it originally wasn't meant for that, the customer is always right they say. The PvP dream ended 6-12 months after release.

The game attracted a large PvE playerbase, because it was advertised as a free to play online RPG , so people bought an apple thinking it would taste like an apple, but it tastes like an orange.

Without a subscription fee, what would you expect?

There's a reason ANet never called their own game an "MMO", and this is just one of those reasons. When people think of those three letters they think "ZOMG so much content/endgame/replayability!" But many people tend to miss that the chief reason for games like WoW having "so much" is because they're backed by the "half a buck a day" $15 bucks a month.

Not only that, but why do you assume everyone felt that they "deserved" endgame content, or that so many were displeased when they beat the game to find out there was little else to do? How many people actually saw GW's campaign mode for what it was intended to be, a start-to-finish co-operative hack-and-slash RPG?

Simply put, ANet only makes money off of your initial purchase. They gain very, very little in keeping you pre-occupied for extremely long periods of time. This isn't to say they're jerk-offs, they just knew of their situation: they didn't have the funds and thus means to provide tons of end-game content. So instead they put all of their effort and talent to create entertaining and polished story campaigns with co-operative play.

You're indeed correct when saying "the customer is always right", though: at 6 million copies sold by April '09, the Guild Wars franchise has been quite an awesome success. For reference Halo 3 reached 8mil copies sold by January of '08.

Gun Pierson · Mar 23, 2010, 12:20 PM // 12:20

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bryant Again

Without a subscription fee, what would you expect?

this:
http://kotaku.com/5488149/the-never+...on-borderlands

Creative devs and marketeers and you don't need a subscription fee to extend the life of a game and keep the playerbase interested.

That's something else than selling a costume for 10 bucks isn't it and it started out as a console game.

Bryant Again · Mar 23, 2010, 12:25 PM // 12:25

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gun Pierson

this:
http://kotaku.com/5488149/the-never+...on-borderlands

Creative devs and marketeers and you don't need a subscription fee to extend the life of a game and keep the playerbase interested.

DLC is pretty cool, but I prefer something more akin to expansion packs for my games.

Not to mention the PvP for that game is shit-tastic awful, christ. It put like all the worst things of Diablo and made it first person.

Gun Pierson · Mar 23, 2010, 12:56 PM // 12:56

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bryant Again

DLC is pretty cool, but I prefer something more akin to expansion packs for my games.

Not to mention the PvP for that game is shit-tastic awful, christ. It put like all the worst things of Diablo and made it first person.

Try to look at the bigger picture, it just to show what is possible and they'll prolly release a big expansion in the future too. More importently, they realise the importance of cool loot and character progression. They even have skills that double your loot etc. Yes GW PvP is superior, but that doesn't solve GW's dull and unrewarding PvE.

I like new content, no matter what form it comes in. It's always better than no content at all.

Bryant Again · Mar 23, 2010, 01:12 PM // 13:12

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gun Pierson

Try to look at the bigger picture, it just to show what is possible and they'll prolly release a big expansion in the future too.

It's just DLC. It's nothing special. The reason it's doing "so good" has less to do with the DLC and more with the game itself: it's a barebones and incredibly simplistic FPS with drops and a gear curve, just one look at WoW can see why this would be so appealing to the 360 crowd.

But still: This is a pretty poor comparison, and I just realized there's little to no point to it. Guild Wars is two and a half years older than Borderlands. At least compare it to Guild Wars when it was at that age (which is the time I'm pretty sure most if not all of us were addicted to it like crack).

Silverblad3 · Mar 23, 2010, 01:28 PM // 13:28

I am not a farmer, though I have farmed for my titles and generally played the game at all levels and areas. Nor have I really spanked the SC endlessly. PvP and lots of playing have netted me tons of cash, too much to be honest and there is little I want to buy in the game that I cannot afford. I have to buy elite armors just to clear cash.

Having said that, I am working on my second account and having to repeat dungeons again the rewards are just pitiful, out of 6 dungeons I got 1 gold drop, rest were Onyx and Diamonds, now I nearly have a stack of them from previous forays.

For new players playing the game, it must be such an anti-climax when you beat the dungeon and end boss to get a double gem drop. I remember when you could pug Deep, now go there and its pretty much deserted because there is little reward that you cannot get by farming like others have said.

Playing the game nets little wealth compared to SC, farming and grind way which is a real shame. That is what has 'killed' pugging and balanced play. I whole heartedly agree, add extra rewards for full team players for end chests and maybe those new players will stick around.

Even now I am shocked that bosses in this game give very little and whoever said their minions are wealthier are quite right.

Balanced play is not rewarding enough to allow pugging, that is the key problem and it is good to see some of the posters here agree in this thread.

Silver

Gun Pierson · Mar 23, 2010, 01:32 PM // 13:32

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bryant Again

It's just DLC. It's nothing special. The reason it's doing "so good" has less to do with the DLC and more with the game itself: it's a barebones and incredibly simplistic FPS with drops and a gear curve, just one look at WoW can see why this would be so appealing to the 360 crowd.

But still: This is a pretty poor comparison, and I just realized there's little to no point to it. Guild Wars is two and a half years older than Borderlands. At least compare it to Guild Wars when it was at that age (which is the time I'm pretty sure most if not all of us were addicted to it like crack).

The reason why I brought that game up is mainly its interesting weapon generator and replayability that's linked with it. I mentionned it earlier in this thread.

The reason why I mentionned Titan Quest is its interesting approach how to acquire and play for armor. Torchlight approach to loot and replayability of dungeons (their dungeon generator) is also something inspiring.

The point is not what the best game is and strictly compare them, the point is how to make GW's PvE more fun and rewarding which at the same time should increase replayability even for long time PvE players.

We'll see what they'll come up with in GW2, because a revamp of PvE in GW1 is most unlikely imo. So yes, it's all hypothetical, but interesting, just like loot should be

Bryant Again · Mar 23, 2010, 01:55 PM // 13:55

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gun Pierson

The reason why I brought that game up is mainly its interesting weapon generator and replayability that's linked with it. I mentionned it earlier in this thread.

The reason why I mentionned Titan Quest is its interesting approach how to acquire and play for armor. Torchlight approach to loot and replayability of dungeons (their dungeon generator) is also something inspiring.

It's interesting how you mention multiple recent games when they are all quite literally borrowing those elements directly from Diablo. Best to give credit where it's due.

That said, the only thing I'd look at would most likely be the random dungeon generator, but I feel we'd see an EotN dungeon generated through that. The reason you can't say "just look at how loot is handled in TQ/Torchlight/Diablo/Xdungeoncrawl" is because GW doesn't follow similar mechanics. The gear and level cap are both reach relatively quick, having everything else be up to aesthetics.

Now should this be something in mind for GW2? If given indications are correct then "no shit sherlock", of course it will. As evidenced above, loot sells. As much as I enjoyed GW1's unique handling of gear I won't mind missing it as long as the gameplay holds up.

And pardon me for saying so, but you've been playing and farming for years and GW's loot system now becomes boring and unrewarding?

Gun Pierson · Mar 23, 2010, 02:49 PM // 14:49

I'm not saying they should just copy everything. I'm well aware GW has other game mechanics, yet I believe much more can or could have been done to make PvE more rewarding.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bryant Again

And pardon me for saying so, but you've been playing and farming for years and GW's loot system now becomes boring and unrewarding?

First 3 years I farmed for myself to get the titles and full hall. The last 2 years I have mainly been duo farming to play with and help out friends, often giving away my ectos and golds etc. because I don't care about gold anymore, but I like messing around with builds etc.

So it's been boring for me for a while now. That doesn't take away it's still some kind a 'thrill' when an ecto drops.

That's aside from 'normal' play ofcourse. But I really have enough of playing mission x or dungeon x for the 10th time just to help out a friend. Give me a reason to pug for example and by that I don't mean forced pugging like we had the first years.

Turbo Ginsu · Mar 23, 2010, 03:59 PM // 15:59

Quote:

Originally Posted by Silverblad3

Even now I am shocked that bosses in this game give very little and whoever said their minions are wealthier are quite right.

That would be me. An addendum to my previous posts, another 15 bosses today, yet again more whites, nothings, non-max blues. No greens. No Golds. Nothing.

Lets now proceed to do the maths,

120 bosses. (At least, not mentioned are the other bosses beaten to get to the skill cap target.) No golds, no greens, nothing but shite white and poo blue. Can anyone honestly say that those are even shit drop rates, let alone decent or good?

Nope, those drop rates plain, straight-up suck. Said it before, say it again, it needs addressing. Yes, the greens and golds are meant to be rare, but are they meant to be so rare that after at least 120 bosses, I have not had a single(Worthless) green drop, nor gold?
Where is the incentive, besides a worthless title for HoM? Anyone who thinks a full HoM is going to grant them something game-breakingly neat is a fool. In fact, I'd go so far as to say that there will be so many people with it(whatever it is) that it'll be about as kewl as the /bonus items.

Also, to reinforce the point that I made earlier, The Legend of Zelda, released in 1986, which I bought upon release, had wicked endgame, just by having the world totally rearranged for your second time through. GW, released in 2005, doesn't even have that, which is probably why the series will never even go close to the 52 million plus Zelda games sold since '86.

Sometimes, taking a leaf out of an older book, and sticky-taping it to a new book, is not such a bad idea..If it ain't broke, don't fix it.

Silverblad3 · Mar 23, 2010, 04:31 PM // 16:31

Quote:

Originally Posted by Turbo Ginsu

120 bosses. (At least, not mentioned are the other bosses beaten to get to the skill cap target.) No golds, no greens, nothing but shite white and poo blue. Can anyone honestly say that those are even shit drop rates, let alone decent or good?

When I did my elite skill title, from all the bosses that I killed I got 1 green item. In as many VQs I probably netted 2 greens from all areas in Tyria, Factions, Nightfall and EoTN. I did get many dyes from their minions though including black and white ones!

Silver

Bryant Again · Mar 23, 2010, 04:34 PM // 16:34

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gun Pierson

I'm not saying they should just copy everything. I'm well aware GW has other game mechanics, yet I believe much more can or could have been done to make PvE more rewarding.

That's a pretty subjective thing to define since all rewards in this game are subjective.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Turbo Ginsu

120 bosses. (At least, not mentioned are the other bosses beaten to get to the skill cap target.) No golds, no greens, nothing but shite white and poo blue. Can anyone honestly say that those are even shit drop rates, let alone decent or good?

The problem here isn't really the droprates, it's more the fact that it's random. No matter how random the system is, there will be at least one totally unlucky person who will only see about 1 awesome drop per 500 boss kills.

What GW2 will need in this instance is 100% "you'll get 'em" rewards, either by doing tough quest chains or choosing an item from an endgame chest (as opposed to random'ing a diamond).

Fortunately money is pretty easy to make in the game and every single thing - save for what Upier mentioned - can indeed be bought with cash. But there's a difference between buying something as opposed to earning it (although one could argue that you "earned" your cash, I'd rather fight for my sword than pay for it).

Quote:

Originally Posted by Turbo Ginsu

Sometimes, taking a leaf out of an older book, and sticky-taping it to a new book, is not such a bad idea..If it ain't broke, don't fix it.

Things sure were simpler back then, only being in 8-bit with a 320x200 resolution...

Even the latest game to have randomization, Torchlight, suffers for this, because you eventually feel like you're running into randomly arranged templates, not truly randomized areas.

This isn't to say it's impossible to have an actually decent randomly generated and immersive game, rather that the people who started developing it are likely still working on it : o

Yelling @ Cats · Mar 23, 2010, 05:12 PM // 17:12

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gun Pierson

That's aside from 'normal' play ofcourse. But I really have enough of playing mission x or dungeon x for the 10th time just to help out a friend. Give me a reason to pug for example and by that I don't mean forced pugging like we had the first years.

It's called...moving on to a different game.

I mean damn, GW has been around for 5 years, and 3 years have passed since any significant content was added. There's a point in time where you just need to hang up the hat and call it a day.

The sooner you realize that nothing is going to make the game more enjoyable the better. Do you think dungeon x that you have done a dozen times is going to somehow become more entertaining if you have a chance of an ecto from the end chest? It will undoubtedly be slightly better for farming to get more virtual e-wealth, but it is the same exact content.

Gun Pierson · Mar 23, 2010, 07:00 PM // 19:00

Quote:

Originally Posted by Yelling @ Cats

It's called...moving on to a different game.

I mean damn, GW has been around for 5 years, and 3 years have passed since any significant content was added. There's a point in time where you just need to hang up the hat and call it a day.

The sooner you realize that nothing is going to make the game more enjoyable the better. Do you think dungeon x that you have done a dozen times is going to somehow become more entertaining if you have a chance of an ecto from the end chest? It will undoubtedly be slightly better for farming to get more virtual e-wealth, but it is the same exact content.

It doesn't change my view that when it comes to loot and rewarding gameplay, GW could have been less unforgiving.

Kaleban · Mar 23, 2010, 07:35 PM // 19:35

Quote:

Originally Posted by Yelling @ Cats

It's called...moving on to a different game.

I mean damn, GW has been around for 5 years, and 3 years have passed since any significant content was added. There's a point in time where you just need to hang up the hat and call it a day.

The sooner you realize that nothing is going to make the game more enjoyable the better. Do you think dungeon x that you have done a dozen times is going to somehow become more entertaining if you have a chance of an ecto from the end chest? It will undoubtedly be slightly better for farming to get more virtual e-wealth, but it is the same exact content.

Yes yes, we know how you feel. Obviously moving on to a new game is an easy and simple solution for the player.

What you fail to notice as always is that this discussion isn't about what a single player should do, but about what ANet could do to ensure player retention.

If the game is made better, more people play, both old and new alike. That's a pretty simple observation really. The whole "if you don't like it, leave" mentality is so childish and destructive.

And as has been noted GW PvE is largely playing dress up by earning/buying your gear. Some people play the Sims, some play GW. Its not just about slaying monster X for the billionth time.

Also the "5 year old" argument is stupid as well, since many games have been around much longer, such as Diablo 2 which STILL has a large playerbase, or games like Starcraft, or for that matter any Blizzard game lol.

The simple fact is, if people feel they're being better rewarded they're more likely to play. And if the reward/time ratio of playing UW is equivalent to playing Maguuma, or Crystal Desert (the ratio includes drop rates, relative monster difficulty, party size, etc.) or wherever, then yes, more of the game will become attractive to play again. I don't know how you keep missing this simple, basic fact, but there you go.

EragonSorceror · Mar 24, 2010, 01:21 AM // 01:21

I'm sorry, but I really just don't understand what you are saying. Are you suggesting that players who have been playing the game for 5 years and have done everything in PvE 10+ times will stop being bored and will find the game attractive again because they can earn more money? Most of these people already have loads of money and have bought everything that they desire. Granted, some people start collections of the older weapons that don't drop anymore, but if they can get the cash to finish these they have no reason to keep playing. I must misunderstand you, because I don't think anyone could actually believe something that stupid.

Lanier · Mar 24, 2010, 01:29 AM // 01:29

back to the OP...

I dont reallly have a problem with rewards of gameplay. In my opinion, the reason we should play games is because they are fun to us. The end-of-the-area/dungeon rewards are just icing on the top. If you arnt having fun, then dont play the game. If a lot of people arnt having fun, then the problem is with the game, in which case rather than increasing rewards, the gameplay needs to be made more fun.

The only exception I think would be quests. Quest rewards in prophesies-nf have always (at least since Iv played the game) been pretty useless.

Jonzcrusher · Mar 24, 2010, 01:34 AM // 01:34

The thing that pisses me off the most is gettin a normal sin tome from a HM chest or 2 onyx/diamonds from a Hard HM dungeon. Personally I dont think Normal tomes should drop from Hm chests, and they should limit gem drop from end chest to a max of 1, so at least u always get a Gold item.